HomeMy WebLinkAbout04-17-08 SS Charter Schools
MINUTES
OCOEE CITY COMMISSION
April 17, 2008, at 6:30 P.M.
CITY COMMISSION WORKSHOP - CHARTER SCHOOLS
I I. CALL TO ORDER
Mayor Vandergrift called the regular session to order at 6:30 p.m. in the Commission Chambers of
City Hall. Commissioner Anderson gave the Invocation and Commissioner Hood led the Pledge
of Allegiance to the Flag. City Clerk Eikenberry called roll and declared a quorum present.
Roll Call: Commissioner Hood, Commissioner Anderson, Mayor Vandergrift, Commissioner
Keller, and Commissioner Johnson (absent).
Also Present: City Manager Frank, City Clerk Eikenberry
I II. DISCUSSION WITH RICHARD PAGE FROM CHARTER SCHOOLS USA
Richard Page of Charter Schools USA (CSUSA) introduced Derek Kellmanson, from his
company. He said the last thing that was done was a feasibility study, community survey, and
there is a summary of the findings and recommendations in the report that has been placed on the
dais. He stated, in looking at the options between a Conversion Charter School and a Start Up
Charter School; the last time we spoke about this the feeling was that the Conversion, whether
that be a community based or a municipal based initiative, would be a more viable option based
on the information in the survey. He said the survey also showed a start up of a K-8 would have
some merit, but required more detailed examination.
Mr. Page said the Commission felt there should be some conversation with the School District
to began discussions regarding their thoughts on the strengths and weaknesses of the City or the
barriers the City may face. He said organizational issues were discussed, such as what the
governance would be; will the schools be run by a private foundation or the municipality?
Mr. Page advised on February 14, 2008, he and Derek Kellmanson met with Dr. Evelyn
Chandler from Orange County Public Schools, Director of Student Choice, and received some
direction as a result of that meeting. He advised that with the conversion process, if the majority
of faculty and parents agree to the conversion, the District will not get in the way. It would go to
the county board for approval, but would not need to go through the district office as a new start
up charter school would. In Lake Wales, the charter system kept the school zoning the same as
the public school zoning after the conversion, with the opportunity for those who wanted to opt
out of the Charter School and remain in the Public School System. He said they were given the
indication that Orange County would not likely do that; they would rezone all of the students to
other schools. Instead of being an opt-out model, it would be an opt-in model. The conversation
regarding a start up school was that they would welcome an application by anyone and that
Ocoee will not be treated any differently than anyone else. They stated they will be rigorous in
their technical review and hold the high standard that they hold for approval of charter schools.
Mr. Page said that he since met with the Mayor and City Manager to brief them on that meeting
and they are waiting for further direction. He said that the city needs to go through the process
of determining governance.
Commissioner Anderson said it looks like we are looking at a conversion. He asked if there
would be a geographical location for opting in to a new Charter School. Mr. Page said the
students would get rezoned to the next closest public school, but they would all be given the
opportunity to attend the Charter School depending on how you set up the model. You would
probably set it up so that residents would have enrollment preference, although it could be open
to all of Orange County students. Commissioner Anderson said public schools can overcrowd,
but a charter would be limited to a specific amount. . Mr. Page said with a conversion, you
would set the capacity at what it currently is. Mayor Vandergrift said his suggestion was to
accept all kids who are within the Orange County School District and over a four year period,
those children who were outside of the City could be replaced with residents once they graduate
or there could be a lottery to determine who could get in. The bottom line is that parents and
children are given a choice about whether or not they wish to attend the Charter School.
Commissioner Keller said he understood that there has to be something unique about the school
to get Charter status, is trying to accomplish "community schools" enough to get a Charter? Mr.
Page said that was enough. Mayor Vandergrift said we will probably have to say that we can
meet or exceed the current educational standards of the Public School District.
Commissioner Keller said he does not want to see them forcing us to accept other students that
meet some guideline for a Charter School and then current students being kicked out; that is why
he is asking about negotiating to an overcrowded school. Will the Charter School be able to
keep the portables there and overcrowd, or can they restrict attendance to a certain number?
Commissioner Anderson said schools in other countries are open many more days than the 180
curriculum offered here. He thought maybe Ocoee should consider year-round schools, six day
weeks, or other options. Mayor Vandergrift said once the school is charter we may be able to
consider different options, but trying to do that from the start would make the vote to support a
Charter School fail. Commissioner Keller said that idea already failed miserably because
families had different kids going at different days and times.
Mayor Vandergrift said to answer Commissioner Keller's earlier question, number of
students is also a negotiable item, right now Orange County has about 800 students in elementary
schools when 600 is a more appropriate number.
Commissioner Hood said our next step is to get a qualified vote process that we can present to
Orange County and asked how long that would take. Mr. Page said Charter Schools USA is not
a conversion company so that may be a question for someone else. He said it would depend on
whether it will be handled by staff, residents, or a hired consultant. Is there a group of people
who want to roll up there sleeves and go after this, or do you need to hire a professional company
to do it; or is it a mix of both; it is probably a mixture of both. He said you can't do it without a
core group of people, but no matter how enthusiastic they are they probably need someone who
is familiar with the process. He added that the time line is August 1, 2008 for when all of this
needs to be completed and turned into the District. Mayor Vandergrift said Lake Wales has
committed to helping us because they have done the conversions, Pembroke Pines has only done
new start ups.
Commissioner Hood said Clarcona is the black eye on the group, he wished they had been part
of the survey because there are 50-60% Ocoee kids in that school.
City Manager Frank said the new elementary school that the school board is planning to put on
Hackney Prairie Road will be located in a rural settlement district in Ocoee. There was concern
from the staff about sending mixed messages if we approve that based on the opinion we
expressed about the Evans move to a rural settlement district. He said the Ocoee Planning and
Zoning Board would have to hear the case and approve it, but the feeling from staff, as well as
the Mayor and himself, was that the impact would be completely different with an elementary
school with 600-700 kids coming in buses vs. 3000 kids being bussed or driving themselves.
Mayor Vandergrift added that whatever is built there, a large percentage of the people served
should come from that district and in the case of a new elementary school that is what will
happen. That was not the case with Evans.
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Mayor Vandergrift added that he and City Manager Frank made a trip to Lake Wales to talk to
the people involved in their conversion. He said the School District said they would not stand in
the way of us getting a vote from the schools, but they will certainly campaign against it.
Mr. Page said Lake Wales is probably the best model for Ocoee to piggyback off of them and
thinks it is a good idea to continue to tap into their knowledge.
Mayor Vandergrift spoke about an elementary school conversion that was tried in the past,
north of Gotha, where the parents in the school wanted to extend the school from a K-5 to a K-8.
The school board campaigned against it and then a few years later, the School Board went in and
changed it to a K-8. He felt the Board must have made a deal with the teachers that if they
didn't vote for the Charter they would give them the K-8 that they wanted.
Commissioner Anderson said we need to identify a school that we want to convert, and then
find the appropriate people (volunteers, staff, etc.) to work with us on it. We need to move
forward if we are going to do this. He added that he still believes we need to extend beyond the
normal 180 hour school year.
Commissioner Hood said he does not believe they have to work longer, he believes they have to
work smarter.
Mr. Page said he recommends that you determine "who" first; municipal backed initiative or a
private foundation. Commissioner Hood said we would also have to decide the curriculum,
teachers pay and benefits, etc. before we take it to a vote. Mr. Page said that would be the
"why" part. Parents and teachers are going to want to know how it would benefit them and the
kids. You may want to bring someone in who can help craft that message. He added that there
ultimately needs to be a group of people who are empowered to make those decisions about what
we want it to look like and why is that the right thing that will win the vote.
Mayor Vandergrift said in Oakland, the City Commission is the School Board.
Commissioner Anderson said we need to have a meeting with the Ocoee School Advisory
Board and formulate a plan for what we want to do and what school we want to convert.
Mayor Vandergrift said we need to have a consensus of how we are going to approach this
because there are several different ways to do it. He discussed some of the current rezoning
issues that we would like to do a better job with. We can try to get all of the schools in the City
to convert, or just go with converting the high school because of the Evans situation. He added
that the thinking is that you really need to start conversions at the elementary school level to set
that psyche.
Commissioner Hood said if we start with one school, for instance at Ocoee Elementary, and we
fail to get the vote there, we can use that as a learning experience before we try to convert other
schools. Mayor Vandergrift asked why we wouldn't want to go for the high school because
they are the most threatened. Commissioner Hood agreed that if the School Board goes forward
with their plan, that may be the right place to start. He added that he does not understand how
the Orange County School Board can move forward with what they are proposing with the new
high school on the 25 acre lot. He didn't think the County would pass it.
Commissioner Keller said the worst group in the survey, as far as a Charter conversion, was the
high school. Mr. Page said while it is true that they had a 30% interest, as opposed to 40% with
the elementary school, we were surprised at how high the high school interest was in comparison
to most high schools surveys on this issue. He said 30% is very high. Mayor Vandergrift said
if they rezone Ocoee High School, most of the interested people will no longer be part of the
vote. Commissioner Keller said that there would be more people from Apopka voting on it. He
added that going with a high school as the first conversion will make it difficult because there are
a number of people who are not affected by the Evans rezoning. That concern will be in District
#4, until the rezoning widens to Starke Lake.
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Commissioner Keller said the question with the Ocoee Elementary School conversion is what
we can give them that they don't have already. It is an A school and the principal is not in favor
of conversion. He said he thinks we need to go for the high school first; if it fails this time we
will have gained knowledge to bring it back up in a few years when the rezoning starts to occur.
Commissioner Hood said he thinks the new high school will be fast tracked and be done before
the 2010 school year. Mayor Vandergrift said if they go back through the full process, it may
run until after the elections on the school board. He said we should be encouraging good people
to run for the school board.
Commissioner Anderson said if we charter Ocoee High School from a municipal initiative, we
could give City residents the first opportunity to be in that school up to the maximum. We
would have to talk to parents and teachers and find out what would entice them. There was a
discussion regarding the grading of schools in Ocoee.
Sheila Grammer, Ocoee School Advisory Board, said if we attempt to charter the high school,
the Board will rezone all of the current students; what if we have more students than the space
that we have. Commissioner Keller said there are a number ofApopka students still at Ocoee
which would reduce the number; there should still be room for everyone in Ocoee who wants to
attend. Commissioner Hood said the survey said that only 50% of the students in Ocoee High
School right now, come from Ocoee.
Mayor Vandergrift said if we did the whole City, only 60% of capacity could be used from
Ocoee residents and the rest could come from anywhere. Our students in the City would have
the first chance to go there. Initially, we wouldn't disrupt the zoning, the kids from outside the
City would still be able to go to the school and phase them out over four years, while their
siblings are still attending. If attendance got much higher, we could make the decision to add
wings to the schools.
Ms. Grammar said she is not going to go to teachers and her neighbors until she can answer the
questions about what we are going to do better and the classroom size issues.
Mr. Page said there is law on class-size requirements; he did not see any reason why the City
would not be allowed to use the existing portables ifthey decided that is what they want.
Commissioner Anderson asked about impact to our budget, will it come out of our general
fund. Mayor Vandergrift said every indication is that it would pay for itself.
Commissioner Hood said that the funding is important, but our first priority is to determine who
would run the school system; he did not think the Commission was qualified to do that. He said
they should look at who we would hire to handle this.
Lisa Wright, Ocoee School Advisory Board, said the board members are very involved in
schools but that is not their careers; they would need guidance from someone who has the
expertise. There should be two teams, the volunteers and the professionals.
Commissioner Hood said the whole scenario of leadership should be determined before it goes
to a vote. Parents and teachers are going to want to see some structure in place before they will
vote for it.
Commissioner Keller said that it will probably pay for itself with the tax money we would
receive, although we would have to put in some money up front. We need to hire someone to
work with Charter conversions and determine what that cost would be. If we want to make the
August deadline, we will have to work on it quickly. We will need to set up the curriculum,
teacher's salaries and benefits, etc. before we go for the vote. Is August 1st a realistic time line?
We have discussed this for several meetings, but we need to move from square one.
Commissioner Hood said we have learned a lot in these meetings and we know we have to
answer questions such as costs, who will run it, what will be better than what we currently have,
who will be in charge, are the teachers credited, etc. Commissioner Keller added that our
volunteers are great, but they do not have the expertise that we need.
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Commissioner Anderson clarified if we only need to make application for the Charter
Conversion by the first of August, not get the vote by then. Mr. Page said the results of the vote
are supposed to be part of that application; that process would have to be completed.
Joann Zeiss, Ocoee School Advisory Board, said we need to look in the community to find
someone to help advise and lead, that would be helpful. We should not sell ourselves short with
what we can offer them, if nothing else, just parental involvement in the school. Parents choose
Charter Schools now, even over A rated schools, because they have more involvement. Hope
Charter is doing very well. We need to convince the parents that we can provide a better
environment; her daughter is in band and she loves art, but she cannot take both at Public School.
We can compete with schools that have an A grade because we have things to offer as a
community .
Commissioner Anderson said we need to find that person in the community.
Commissioner Keller said that we need to determine which school. There was discussion
regarding issues at various schools and the consensus of the Commission was the high school
had the biggest need because of the ongoing rezoning issues.
Mayor Vandergrift said that the Commissioners need to do their research and educate
themselves about the Charter Schools and the conversion process.
Commissioner Hood said he has someone in mind already to help lead the conversion, but he
cannot say who until he speaks with them.
Commissioner Keller thanked Joanne Ziess for all of the work she did regarding the Wekiva
rezoning, even though the end result was not what we wanted. Ms. Zeiss thanked others who
worked very hard on the lawsuit. It was a community effort and they raised almost $30,000 to
cover legal fees. She wants to let the kids know it was never about Wekiva being a bad school.
Ms. Zeiss added that there are probably grounds for appeal, but she would rather but her efforts
into getting Charter Schools in place. There was some discussion about the Wekiva case and the
proposed Evans move, and the unsafe conditions in Pine Hills that the school board is claiming
to be grounds for moving the high school. Ms. Zeiss suggested that Mr. Pitts, retired Principal
from Evans, may be helpful with the conversion process.
Mayor Vandergrift said that Martha Lopez-Anderson informed him that the Homebuilders
Association has filed suit against the school board because they wasted $850,000,000 in building
funds from what was presented in their plans when they increased the taxes. There were 25 new
schools in their plans, one being Evans High School to be rebuilt for $22,000,000, which has
now taken a quantum leap to moving it for $70,000,000 - $85,000,000.
Mayor Vandergrift said we need to reassert ourselves, start looking for someone, and keep
moving forward.
Commissioner Keller asked if we could have staff start looking for someone who does Charter
Conversions.
They discussed which school should be converted and the consensus of the commission was that
we wanted to convert Ocoee High School to a Charter School, but that it would have to be
discussed at a regular meeting since this is a workshop.
City Manager Frank said we can start looking, but he doesn't think there is enough information
to determine the scope of services until it is discussed at a regular meeting and voted on.
Commissioner Anderson said it sounds like we want to convert Ocoee High School to a Charter
School. Commissioner Keller said we want to go ahead with the high school and we are
looking for an organization that can help us create the curriculum and other things we need to get
this passed.
City Manager Frank said this organization can put together the operational model of what we
anticipate, and then someone who can help us on the marketing end. Commissioner Keller said
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so we can then go to the parents and teachers and let them know what we want to do and get it
passed so it can later be presented to the School Board with our application.
Commissioner Anderson said one company may be able to do both. He asked Mr. Page if his
firm could bring in people from outside to help with the conversion through their company so it
would stay under one company. Mayor Vandergrift told Mr. Page he thinks his firm ought to
set up a department for conversions and you put in there that you will manage the school for
three years as a contract. Mr. Page said there has been a lot of discussion about opening up a
conversion department, but they would not serve them well by saying they could assist us with a
conversion. He said they do not offer FRS or some other things that are going to be required to
get the vote. Mr. Page said he can try to assist staff with a framework and summarizing what
has been discussed. He added that there are organizations that can get you through the technical
side of getting through a conversion; how that school district application process works, but the
core issue is who the superintendant is and who drives the program design.
Commissioner Anderson said what about trying to convert the Hackney Prairie School before it
is built and teachers are hired. Mr. Page said the District would probably tell you there is no
mechanism in place to allow that process.
Mayor Pro Tern Hood said we have a general consensus on which way to go. He thanked
everyone for coming out tonight.
I III. ADJOURNMENT
The.meeting was adjourned at 8:02 p.m.
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S. Scott Vandergrift, Mayor
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