HomeMy WebLinkAbout12-19-06 Minutes WS - Schools
MINUTES OF CITY COMMISSION WORKSESSION
ON SCHOOL ISSUES
Held on December 19, 2006
The work session was called to order by Mayor Vandergrift at 6:05 p.m. in the
Commission Chambers of City Hall, located at 150 N. Lakeshore Drive. Mayor
Vandergrift stated this was a work session on schools and he recognized two members
from the audience; Mack H. McLaughlin, the City of Winter Garden's and Liaison to the
Orange County School system; and Andrew Ducandis, the Senior Director of Planning
and Government Relations at OCPS. He thanked them for their attendance.
Roll Call:
Mayor Vandergrift, Commissioner Hood, Commissioner
Anderson, Commissioner Johnson, and Commissioner Keller.
Also present was City Attorney Rosenthal, City Manager Frank,
and City Clerk Eikenberry.
Guests Speaker:
State Representative Frank Attkisson
Mayor Vandergrift introduced Representative Frank Attkisson as a former Kissimmee
Mayor and a charter school guru in Osceola County. He said he has had many nice
encounters with him over the years on charter schools and ways to improve the school
system.
Rep. Frank Attkisson gave a power point presentation and began with history of when
he was Mayor and the interest he first had in charter schools. He said he first attended
the Florida League of Cities in 1997, whereas there was a discussion of Pembroke Pines
doing a charter school. He said they addressed the issues in 1996-1998 because they felt
that Broward County School Board had not provided enough schools in their city;
therefore, they were in more of a confrontational mode. Kissimmee, however, did
something different; they felt they should join the school board in solving their issues by
consolidating their assets. He said he was elected in 2000 and placed in Education
Innovation and will probably spend his entire eight-year term there.
Rep. Frank Attkisson said he was happy to be in Ocoee to help them with ideas and
options. He listed the educational options: (1) home school, (2) private school, (3)
charter school, and (4) district school. He said there were close to 250 charter schools
currently in the state of Florida. He said when they built the charter school in
Kissimmee, they first went to the school board and applied for a charter by the city and
hired a consultant. The consultant (EMO) worked with them and the local school district
approved the charter. In 1999 the state provided charter capital, with a unique funding
mechanism that only lasted about 2 years. That has since changed.
Rep. Frank Attkisson said they have passed a new law and the charter capital is gone.
Now the incentive is how you can get creative in building the facilities comparative to
how you go to the state to get more dollars. The current model is that charters are issued
by the legislative local school district; however, this past year they created an option for
the Florida Schools of Excellence Commission. The idea/concept behind that is a
multiple authorizer issue to create some competition. The negative standpoint that some
City Commission Work session on Schools
December 19, 2006
might have is they go into their local district and ask to do something unique and
different. The Florida Schools of Excellence Commission (F.S.E.C.) will be authorized
to issue state-wide charter authorizing capability.
Rep. Frank Attkisson said the other difference is there are no state funds provided for
these facilities, which is the hitch on all of this. They have a different methodology now
in that rather than going to your school district to apply for a charter, you will soon be
able to go to the F.S.E.C. and it should be available by August.
Rep. Frank Attkisson continued stating the law was typically silent in the role of the
municipality in education. However, the intent states "new sources of community
support in the form of municipalities with knowledge of the unique needs of a particular
community should be authorized to participate in developing and supporting charter
schools that maximize access to a wide variety of high quality educational options for all
students." He shared that this year they recognized that Ocoee City Council understands
Ocoee and its educational needs.
He stated that one way that school districts run schools is by their tax dollars, and they
have been creating school impact fees. He explained the potential of impact fees and the
unique things you could do with those, especially TIF financing. He said that impact fees
are recommended by the School Board to the County Commission and are not set by the
school district. The Legislature, under this particular statute, gave the power to the
people who levy the impact fee (the County or City) to direct where they go. He said you
do not always have to send that to the school district. He explained an example of this
using the City of Palm Bay.
Rep. Frank Attkisson continued by stating he understood that Ocoee has not set an
impact fee, but set an interlocal development where they collect an impact fee on an
ordinance set by the county. If they were to choose to enact this, his perception is that
they would have to get out of the collection agreement with Orange County and then set
their own impact fee. As they collect it they would then have this to apply if they chose to
give it to another entity to build a charter school. He said this was strenuous to do
politically; however, the law is on your side to do that.
Rep. Frank Attkisson went on to explain another option, which is to do it your way and
not the School District's way. He said this is cooperation centered; the idea for an
E.F.B.D. (Educational Facility Benefit District) is for all involved to sit around with
equal footing. The School Board has a need to provide student stations, the local
government is looking to assist in the development of educational options for parents in
their community, and property owners are looking to resolve the issue so they can get
permission to build. It requires everybody to agree on the plan and nobody to be forced
into it. He further explained the details of how that option works as a tri-party agreement.
Rep. Frank Attkisson said that under this law, the impact fees and assessments would
stay right here and have to be spent on facilities in this area. He said one unique part of it
is that whoever is in the E.F.B.D. area has a specific benefit in that they now own the
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school, not the school district. What they found with the first E.F.B.D. developed in
Kissimmee is that the community is now using the school for meetings, because they
built that district school and that area has the right to meet there. Another benefit the
E.F.B.D. has in paying that assessment, is that they have the "right of first refusal" to
have their meetings there. Because they pay that assessment, they get another specific
benefit that anybody who owns a piece of property that has another individual who
resides there has a "right of first refusal". In other words, anybody who purchases one of
the homes in the E.F.B.D. area picks up on that benefit, which makes for a good selling
point as well.
Rep. Frank Attkisson explained that one large developmental area can reestablish a
school and pick up on those additional assessments after extensive planning. He
explained the differences between a C.D.D. (Community Development District) and
E.F.B.D. For the most part, those are both tools that Ocoee could be looking into. He
sees two unique options that a municipality did not have six months ago: (1) you can
become an authorizer via the Florida Schools of Excellence, (2) you can partnership with
C.D.D.'s and apply the rules of the law in certain areas. He then opened the floor for
questions.
Mayor Vandergrift inquired if the City can vote to do the whole City has an E.F.B.D.
Rep. Frank Attkisson said the property owner has to be the 100% voter on that since it
is a property assessment. However, you can get a developer coming in or a series of
developers coming in to do it.
Commissioner Keller asked about reducing the size of the County School District by
having a City school district. He said they seem to lose the ability of the citizenry to hold
the School Board accountable; we only vote for one of the seven School Board members.
He said the issue they have is that because of that they seem to have lost the community
urgency and asked what would be involved in reducing the school district.
Rep. Frank Attkisson said that question comes up every few years and it is embedded in
the State Constitution. It says that we are going to have 67 districts, but if you take it
purely there is no room for the School of the Deaf and Blind in St. Augustine. Luckily,
they have not been challenged on that. With that said, philosophically he agrees and
thinks that some school districts become too big and bureaucratic. Legislative
discussions have been had about this, but nothing has been dealt with yet. It is tough to
decide how to divide those. He gave an example of the City of Lake Wales, who went
out and asked their citizens to convert seven of their charter schools. That means that
they took the public school, asked parents and teachers of their willingness to convert,
and took over those schools with that vote. A charter conversion is a public school that is
no longer managed by the school district, but by the community. Rep. Attkisson said
that Polk is not a charter county; however, that would not make a difference.
Rep. Attkisson said that Pembroke Pines built one school in 1998 and now they have
seven charter schools that are successful. He said their initiative right now is to convert
the rest of the schools in their city to charters. However, the remaining district schools
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are "A" schools so they have the need to provide a good reason as to why those should be
converted to charters. He suggested that if they have the political will to do that in
Ocoee, it will take time and could happen.
Commissioner Keller inquired if Ocoee could do something like Polk County did and
what if Orange County turned them down. Rep. Attkisson believed that Polk County did
turn them down and they took it to appeals and won. He said he was unsure of the
details, but the appeals are handled by the Florida Schools of Excellence Commission.
He emphasized that you have to go in with a plan and show a benefit of your idea and
what makes it different and unique; why is it necessary?
Commissioner Anderson asked who was funding the debt of the schools once it is
turned over to charter. He said that Ocoee would like to charter certain schools in this
area and if done, would the school board still fund those. Rep. Attkisson said if Ocoee
has some below grade schools that it would like to concentrate on, it has the ability to put
together and work with a non-profit group to come in and manage those schools. In
response to who would pay the debt if conversion is approved, he said that since it is a
public school today the district taxes used, Ocoee gets hit with nothing. For instance, the
management of Lake Wales' schools is being issued FTE dollars from Tallahassee to
spend operationally, but do not pay for any capital costs. He said there is a difference
between a new charter and a conversion charter.
Rep. Attkisson declared that if Ocoee wants to do something like this it needs to be a
strong political interest, not a 3-2 vote. Mayor Vandergrift asked how the income from
the School District is broken down and distributed. Rep. Attkisson gave the rough
numbers for this year, including formulas and various funding issues.
Commissioner Anderson inquired about attempting some charter conversions, how to
they maintain their sense of community. Rep. Attkisson told him it is a way of showing
future residents that the City cares about the education of their children, and that is a
benefit. He then defended the School Board's side of that equation in that they have to be
concerned about the education of all of the children in Orange County, they may not
approve a school that "only" Ocoee children could attend. The City may consider going
to the School Board and bring money to the table and discuss conditions and zoning
issues in the context of "sense of community." There is a methodology under the Charter
School Law that gives preference to children in the area of the school. He would need to
look further into that for more details. Carnival Cruise Line created a Charter School
where the employees had the right of first refusal. He said you cannot create the perfect
fence around your community, but there are ways to place some boundaries.
Mayor Vandergrift read a question from Mack McLaughlin of Winter Garden asking,
with all the issues throughout the County, how can we get focus on West Orange County?
Mr. Attkisson said that you put diversity of opinions aside and to come together with a
strong political will. He said a City has to come together and be the leader, by gathering
up their resources; developers coming in wanting to access the benefits of a community;
looking at the benefits of CDD and EFBD; and in-kind donations in some fashion. If you
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put that kind of package together and take it to the County School Board with long-term
solutions, saying you want the impact fees, but may be able to give them an assessment
or some City dollars to build schools, they are going to work in cooperation with you. If
the School Board has ten schools to build, they are going to assist a City that offers a
good package of resources and solutions. You need to develop a strong political will
within your community.
Commissioner Keller said we have done that in the past, with Ocoee High School for
example, getting them in here at a reasonable price for the property, etc. Now the issue is
the rezoning, and how they are pushing some of the kids out, with concerns of more
rezoning in the next few years. This is one of the reasons for wanting our own school
district.
Commissioner Keller said he heard State legislature is looking at splitting larger districts
such as Orange County into smaller districts and this seems like a good time to allow
cities to be involved in taking their own districts within their boundaries.
Rep. Attkisson said if we could get a vote for it, he would vote for it. Changing the
Constitution would require a 60 percent vote, and get it through legislature, which would
be rather difficult. He said he thinks it would be easier to do something like Pembroke
Pines or Lake Whales, not with the absolute authority, but the applied authority-which is
your parents and teachers-that they want you to operate it. That will take some time to
build.
Mayor Vandergrift said he would soon have to recess the workshop shortly to begin the
normal Commission meeting and then he would reconvene the workshop so they could
finish and discuss the zoning issues.
Mayor Vandergrift asked if anyone had questions or comments regarding the charter
schools.
R.P. Monacky, 1820 Prairie Lake Blvd., said that School Board Member Martin was not
giving a verbal agreement when he spoke with the resident, he was just giving his
OpInIOn.
Jim McCarthy said he is a new resident and he has been watching the Commission on
TV. He spoke to the Commission 6 or 7 years ago with two people doing a presentation
on Charter schools and it did not go very well. He has now moved to Ocoee, and has had
experience assisting other Cities, including Pembroke Pines. He has assisted several cities
with Charter Schools, but not Charter Conversions. He was a pioneer in this concept
back in 1999, but has since drifted away and needs to get back in the learning curve. Mr.
McCarthy also said he was happy to hear Commission talking about a sense of
community instead of just zoning issues. That is what is needed to form a Charter
School. He said the City of Pembroke Pines has no interest in being a Charter District,
they are a Charter School System. He offered to help the City in any way he can. Mayor
Vandergrift said they will be calling on him.
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Mayor Vandergrift introduced Debra Booth, Chair of the Ocoee School Advisory
Board, and other members of the board were present.
Mayor Vandergrift gave Rep. Attkisson an I LOVE OCEE button and a key to the City,
and thanked him for being here. Rep. Attkisson said he respects their position as
Commissioners; it is a tough job because you have to answer to the residents one-on-one
when you are out in the community.
The meeting was recessed at 7:15 p.m. to begin the regular City Commission
Meeting.
The workshop reconvened at 7:18 p.m. to discuss the rezoning issues.
Mayor Vandergrift recognized Sandy Simpson of Orange County Public School System
in the audience, and asked the audience if anyone had any questions or comments
regarding the rezoning of Ocoee High School Students to the Apopka Relief School. He
said he doesn't think that notice went out to the public on time to get feedback. He said
spoke to an attorney who thinks we have a case, should we need to go that way. He
begun setting up a Legal Defense Fund in case it is necessary, and we need to discuss
where we stand on that issue. He said they would like the boundaries to be changed
which would give them the same number of students going to the relief school, without
moving the kids from Ocoee.
Mayor Vandergrift said Ocoee High can handle 3000 without portables, and today has
3200 with 22 portables. If the school were reduced by 450-490 kids from South Apopka
that should not have been sent to Ocoee in the first place, by sending them to Apopka
Relief school, and other boundary line changes could keep in 250 kids at Ocoee, which
would make in 2900-3000, which would not over-crowd the school. The community
could live with that.
Commissioner Keller said he went to the School Board work session and expressed that
we want to keep kids inside of the City of Ocoee. He knows the main concerns are about
those moving to Apopka, and then again to Evans when it opens. He would like to see
the move for those 250 students be placed on hold. Originally, the unofficial word was
that the line was ending at McCormick Road. School Board Member Martin also assured
an Ocoee resident that there was no need to worry or relocate, that none of the kids will
be moved anywhere. He believes Mr. Martin made a verbal agreement on the School
Board's behalf. He said we should take 250 kids out of original the Apopka School and
put them in the relief school, so as the growth continues to occur in Apopka there will be
room for new kids in the Apopka School. He said it is an Apopka Relief School, leave
Ocoee out of the equation.
Commissioner Hood said his concern is the School Board was not quick enough to give
out numbers regarding the student population of subdivisions, which should also include
potential growth.
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They are spending alot of money on Edgewater project, with shopping center purchase,
and moving Evans High School; and without a doubt they will move the boundaries for
Evans into Ocoee even though they are saying "it is not planned at this time."
Commissioner Hood said there are 3200 students at Olympia and at Ocoee High School.
They are spending money to expand Olympia, so there is no reason they can't they
expand Ocoee High School. There is a bigger picture here, and the school board is not
being consistent with the Olympia situation. They want Ocoee to stay at 2700 students,
but Olympia is okay with 3200. The 10 million in renovations will allow even more than
3200 at Olympia. If they pushed out boundaries for Evans, that would drop population
at Olympia and raise the population at Evans, which is logical, but that won't ever
happen. We should consider fixes suggested by Rep. Atkisson to add a wing to Ocoee
High School, and work with the school board. There is no reason it is not feasible in
Ocoee. We need a quick fix right now and Charter Schools do not represent a quick fix.
Sawmill and other subdivisions have been there for 20 years, and having kids ripped
away from their community schools and extra-curricular activities adversely affecting
many of the kids. We needed numbers of how many kids would be moved prior to this
and we didn't have them. School Board Commissioner Cadle asked for numbers before
final zonings decisions were made, and now we finally have them. There is no reason
boundaries can't be moved to avoid moving those 250 students. Also, School Board
Meetings are 4:30 p.m. people are unable to attend. The School Board should make
themselves more accessible to the people they are affecting. No decision has been made
yet and we need everyone to get involved. Mayor Vandergrift said the rezoning has
been advertised for Public Hearing, he can't remember them ever changing anything that
got to this point, because it would require readvertising for another Public Hearing.
Commissioner Hood said we also have to consider that we want to keep a good
relationship with the School Board. There are new schools coming in 2008; Hackney
Prairie elementary school, the Ingram Road middle school, and an elementary school in
Arden Park we are trying to get. Right now there are over 35 portables at Clarcona
Ocoee Elementary now taking up three quarters of the playground area. The School
Board is coming around, they are giving assistance to Olympia High School, and they can
do it for Ocoee. A new wing would take care of the 250 kids, and some future growth.
Commissioner Johnson said, as a City we need to sit down with the County and do a
joint workshop before we create a bad environment and spend a lot of money on
attorneys. Charter Schools are a costly thing, and he said he would rather look at other
options as a joint venture and try to come to some arrangement before we move forward
on our own. IN the past we have tried to work with the County by selling land to them at
reasonable costs. He said we need to try to work together before we move forward.
Mack McLaughlin, speaking officially on behalf of the City of Winter Garden, said they
are interested in working with Ocoee, particularly if they choose Charter Conversions.
He said the City would like to be kept in the loop on that issue. He also said there was a
small rezoning done at last school board meeting with regard to Coventry Park in Winter
Garden. Currently half the neighborhood is zoned for Lakeview and half to Ocoee
Middle. The neighborhood is not built yet. He wants to go on record again stating that
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the Winter Garden kids should stay at Lake View and then fall to West Orange which is
now under-capacity. This would keep them out of Ocoee High School to bring relief to
Ocoee High School. Sandy Simpson of Orange County Public School System said the
advertised option is that half of the kids would go to Ocoee.
Mayor Vandergrift closed by saying Evans will be built in 2009 on the border of the
Ocoee School boundaries and the Apopka Relief School rezoning will take place in
August of 2007. He will be happy to sit down with anyone wishing to discuss these
issues. He said we need to deal with these issues in a straight-forward manner, not by
having an elected School Board Member tell us he is not in favor of the Evans move, and
then have the vote pass unanimously. It is costing the county residents 50 million dollars.
They are trying to solve an education problem; it is not an overcrowding problem.
The meeting adjourned at 7:44 p.m.
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