10-20-2020 Minutes MINUTES
REGULAR CITY COMMISSION MEETING
OCTOBER 20,2020
CALL TO ORDER- 6:15 PM
Mayor Johnson called the regular session to order at 6:15 PM in the Commission Chambers of
City Hall. The invocation by Mayor Johnson, followed by the Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag
led by Commissioner Wilsen. City Clerk Sibbitt called the roll and declared a quorum present.
Present: Mayor Johnson,Commissioner Brinson,Commissioner Wilsen,Commissioner Firstner,
Commissioner Oliver
Also Present: City Manager Frank, City Attorney Cookson, City Clerk Sibbitt
PRESENTATIONS AND PROCLAMATIONS - 6:17 PM
Proclamation for Week of the Family—November 7-14 was proclaimed by Mayor Johnson.
Proclamation for Julius `July' Perry Memorial Highway Designation was read and
proclaimed by Mayor Johnson.
Presentation - Commissioner Oliver gave a brief background on the success of the Ocoee
Youth Council 2020 Graduating Members. He then presented each senior with a $500
scholarship.
STAFF REPORTS AND AGENDA REVIEW -None
COMMISSIONERS ANNOUNCEMENTS - 6:21 PM
Commissioner Brinson—None
Commissioner Wilsen—None
Commissioner Firstner—None
Commissioner Oliver—None
Mayor Johnson—Announced the following:
1) In remembrance of the 100-Year Anniversary of the 1920 Ocoee Election Day Massacre, the
City of Ocoee HRDB will present a four-day Memorial and Educational Symposium on
November 1st, 4th, 6th & the 8th at the Ocoee Lakeshore Center. This event is open to the public.
For more information please visit the City's website at www.Ocoee.org.
2)Announced the following,"Due to COVID-19 City Hall is closed to the public which is subject
to change based on the Governor's Executive Order. All interested parties are invited to be heard
during the public comments and public hearing portion of the meeting, and the City requests the
public to call or email comments and/or questions to 407-554-7118 or citizens@ocoee.org. City
staff will be standing by to ensure that comments or questions come before the City Commission
during the meeting."
COMMENTS FROM CITIZENS/PUBLIC - None
Regular City Commission Meeting
October 20, 2020
No telephone calls or emails were received.
CONSENT AGENDA- 6:24 PM
Consent Agenda Motion
Motion: Move to adopt the Consent Agenda Items #1 -#7.
Moved by Commissioner Wilsen, seconded by Commissioner Firstner; Motion
carried 5-0.
1. Approval of the Minutes for the Special Session and Final Budget Public Hearing held
September 23,2020, and the Regular City Commission Meeting held October 6,2020.
(City Clerk Sibbitt)
Approved on Consent. Motion carried 5-0.
2. Approval of New Appointment to the Citizen Advisory Council for Ocoee Police
Department. (City Clerk Sibbitt)
Members of the Citizen Advisory Council for Ocoee Police Department serve a three-year term. The
Resolution creating the Board allows no more than fifteen (15) members. Currently, the Board has thirteen
(13)members.An application was received by Gregory Meeks who has shown an interest in being appointed
to the Citizen Advisory Council for Ocoee Police Department for a term ending January 2023.
Approved on Consent. Motion carried 5-0.
3. Approval of the First Amendment to the Contractual Agreement with Ocoee Youth
Council(OYC) Coordinator Dillard. (City Clerk Sibbitt)
On November 5,2019,the City Commission approved the Contractual Agreement between the City of Ocoee
and OYC Coordinator Dorcas Dillard.This agreement expired on September 30,2020,and has been amended
to extend the agreement for a one(1)year term with automatic one(1)year renewals until terminated by either
party. Currently,Dorcas Dillard receives$800.00 per month as the coordinator for the Ocoee Youth Council.
Approved on Consent. Motion carried 5-0.
4. Approval to Move an Alternate Member to a Regular Member Seat on the Code
Enforcement Board. (City Clerk Sibbitt)
The Code Enforcement Board was created by Ordinance No.741 on June 16, 1981.The purpose of this Board
is to review infractions of the City technical Codes negotiate compliance and impose fines for failure to
comply. The Code Enforcement Board is to have seven(7)regular members and two(2)alternate members
with a three-year term. Currently, the Board has six (6) regular members and one (1) alternate member.
Member Darrell Lomneck resigned from the board leaving one (1) vacant regular member seat. Alternate
Member Christopher Shropa has indicated he is interested in moving into a regular member seat on the board.
Approved on Consent. Motion carried 5-0.
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5. Approval of the Arden Park Phase 5 Subdivision Plat. (Development Services Director
Rumer)
The subject property is located immediately east of Ingram Road between the Ingram Trails Subdivision and
the Brynmar Subdivision. The property is identified as parcel number 04-22-28-0000-00-001. The total area
of the plat amounts to approximately 53.22 acres. This plat is required in order to create the 89 lots for the
residential subdivision, associated street right-of-way and tracts for open space, recreation, and retention
facilities. In total, Phase 5 of the Arden Park Subdivision will take up approximately 53.22 acres. The Arden
Park Phase 5 subdivision is platting prior to receiving a Certificate of Completion;therefore,the developer is
required to provide a Surety covering the outstanding proposed improvements as approved in the Preliminary
/Final Subdivision Plans for Arden Park North Phase 5. The Developer, Lennar Homes, LLC has provided
the City with a Letter of Credit in the amount of$2,775,685.72.
Approved on Consent. Motion carried 5-0.
6. Approval to Award ITB #20-011 W. Oakland Avenue and N. Cumberland Avenue
Reconstruction Phase 1 and Lakewood Avenue and E. Oakland Avenue
Reconstruction. (Purchasing Manager Tolbert)
The City of Ocoee, Florida (City) solicited bids from qualified contractors for furnishing, delivering, and
installing all materials, equipment, incidentals, and services, including all labor for the work to construct the
W. Oakland Ave.and N. Cumberland Ave. Reconstruction Phase 1 and Lakewood Ave.and E. Oakland Ave.
Reconstruction Project.The project is primarily a roadway and drainage improvements project with upgrades
for stormwater treatment using in-line current standards new second generation baffle box and strainers to
capture pollution prior to discharging directly into Starke Lake.The project is also located in the Wekiva River
Basin area.The W.Oakland Ave and N.Cumberland Ave Reconstruction—Phase 1 Project primarily consists
of the installation of the stormwater system on the north side of W. Oakland Ave and on Cumberland Ave.
The N.Lakewood Ave.and E.Oakland Ave. Reconstruction Project is a complete reconstruction of the right-
of-ways of the aforementioned streets. The bid was publicly advertised on August 23, 2020, and opened on
September 29, 2020. A total of six (6) bids received ranging from $1,256,146.69 to $1,944,098.28. Staff
recommends awarding the bid to Central Florida Environmental Corp. for $1,256,146.69 as the most
responsive and responsible bidder.
Approved on Consent. Motion carried 5-0.
7. Approval to Purchase Four Police Vehicles. (Police Chief Brown)
The City of Ocoee Police Department desires to purchase four(4) 2021 model patrol vehicles for a cost of
$172,229 funded from police impact fees. These vehicles were approved by Commission for FY 20/21.
Utilizing existing impact funds,the vehicles will be purchased using the current Florida Sheriff's Association
Purchasing Contract pricing from Duval Ford. Delivery is included in the price quote.
Approved on Consent. Motion carried 5-0.
FIRST READING OF ORDINANCES—None
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SECOND READING OF ORDINANCES—PUBLIC HEARINGS - 6:25 PM
S. Second Reading of Ordinance Amending the City of Ocoee Municipal General
Employees' Retirement Trust Fund Reflecting Changes for Compliance with Setting
Every Community Up Retirement Enhancement (SECURE) Act. (Second Reading and
Public Hearing scheduled for October 20, 2020, Regular City Commission Meeting at 6:15 pm or soon
thereafter). (Municipal Pension Board Chair Cowan)
At their meeting held on August 5, 2020,the General Employees'Retirement Board reviewed and approved
the proposed ordinance which deals primarily with the Setting Every Community Up Retirement Enhancement
(SECURE)Act, signed into law on December 20, 2019 and amended the definition of"Required Beginning
Date"under Section 401 (a)(9)for compliance with the Internal Revenue Code.Contained in Section 401(a)(9)
of the Internal Revenue Code, the required Minimum Distribution rules limit the tax deferral of retirement
benefits by requiring qualified plans pay benefits to the participants, and the participants begin to pay taxes
on those benefits by a certain age.The SECURE Act amended Section 401 (a)((9)by raising the age at which
benefits must commence to 72 or at the age the participant retires whichever is later. The change is effective
to participants who reach the age of 70 '/2 on or after January 1, 2020.None of these changes are anticipated
to have any financial impact to the city.
City Manager Frank explained the Setting Every Community Up Retirement Enhancement
(SECURE) Act was signed into law on December 20, 2019, and amended the definition of
"Required Beginning Date" under Section 401 (a)(9) for compliance with the Internal Revenue
Code.
City Attorney Cookson read the title of the ordinance.
The public hearing was opened. As no speaker reservation forms, telephone calls, or emails were
received, the public hearing was closed.
Motion: Move to adopt Ordinance No. 2020-018, Amending the City of Ocoee
Municipal General Employees' Retirement Trust Fund Reflecting Changes for
Compliance with Setting Every Community Up Retirement Enhancement
(SECURE) Act; Moved by Commissioner Oliver, seconded by Commissioner
Wilsen; Motion carried unanimously.
9. Second Reading of Ordinance Amending the City of Ocoee Police Officers' and
Firefighters' Retirement Trust Fund Reflecting Changes for Compliance with Setting
Every Community Up Retirement Enhancement (SECURE) Act. (Second Reading and
Public Hearing scheduled for October 20, 2020, Regular City Commission Meeting at 6:15 pm or soon
thereafter). (Police & Fire Pension Board Chair Brown)
At their meeting held on August 5,2020,the Police&Firefighters' Retirement Board reviewed and approved
the proposed ordinance which deals primarily with the Setting Every Community Up Retirement Enhancement
(SECURE) Act, signed into law on December 20, 2019 and amended the definition of"Required Beginning
Date"under Section 401 (a)(9)for compliance with the Internal Revenue Code.Contained in Section 401(a)(9)
of the Internal Revenue Code, the required Minimum Distribution rules limit the tax deferral of retirement
benefits by requiring qualified plans pay benefits to the participants, and the participants begin to pay taxes
on those benefits by a certain age.The SECURE Act amended Section 401 (a)((9)by raising the age at which
benefits must commence to 72 or at the age the participant retires whichever is later. The change is effective
to participants who reach the age of 70 '/2 on or after January 1, 2020.None of these changes are anticipated
to have any financial impact to the city.
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City Manager Frank stated this is the same amendment as the last item to comply with the
Internal Revenue Code.
City Attorney Cookson read the title of the ordinance.
The public hearing was opened. As no speaker reservation forms, telephone calls, or emails were
received, the public hearing was closed.
Motion: Move to adopt Ordinance No. 2020-025, Amending the City of Ocoee
Police Officers' and Firefighters' Retirement Trust Fund Reflecting Changes for
Compliance with Setting Every Community Up Retirement Enhancement
(SECURE) Act; Moved by Commissioner Wilsen, seconded by Commissioner
Brinson; Motion carried unanimously.
PUBLIC HEARING - 6:27 PM
10. Sale of 17.96 Acres of City-Owned Property Located at the Northeast Corner of
Fullers Cross and Ocoee Apopka Road by GPK Investments, Inc. (Advertised in the West
Orange Times on Thursday, October 8, 2020.) (Assistant City Manager Shadrix)
On August 4, 2020,the City Commission directed staff to proceed with preparation of a contract for the sale
of 17.96 acres of City-owned property located at the northeast corner of Fullers Cross and Ocoee-Apopka
Road(the"Agreement"). This direction followed a presentation by staff and the City Attorney of the results
of the City's Request for Proposals solicited for this Property. GPK Investments proposed the highest sales
price via assignment from Centerline Properties. On October 6, 2020, the City Commission approved the
Contract of Sale for purchase of the property,which has now been executed by all parties. In accordance with
Section C-8 (B) (2)of the City Charter, when any proposal for the disposition of real property owned by the
City,either by sale or by lease for a term exceeding five(5)years,shall receive a majority vote of the members
of the City Commission and the fair market value of the real property concerned exceeds one hundred thousand
dollars($100,000.), such action shall not be effective unless it has been acted upon by the City Commission
after a public hearing preceded by at least seven (7) days' notice of the hearing and the proposed action by
publication in the manner set forth above.
Assistant City Manager Shadrix provided the background summary of the 17.96 acres of City-
owned property located on the Northeast Corner of Fullers Cross and Ocoee Apopka Roads. This
public hearing is in accordance with Section C-8 (B) (2) of the City Charter to which the sale
shall not be effective unless it has been acted upon by the City Commission after a public hearing,
preceded by at least seven (7) days notice of the hearing and the proposed action by publication
in the manner set forth above. GPK Investments, Inc., has offered the City $3.5 million for the
17.96 acres. If this is approved tonight, the closing of the property will be scheduled in a timely
manner.
The public hearing was opened. As no speaker reservation forms, telephone calls, or emails were
received, the public hearing was closed.
Motion: Move to sell the 17.96 acres of City-Owned Property located at the
Northeast Corner of Fullers Cross and Ocoee Apopka Road to GPK Investments,
Inc.; Moved by Commissioner Brinson, seconded by Commissioner Wilsen;
Motion carried unanimously.
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REGULAR AGENDA - 6:29 PM
11. Approval of Project Budget and Exhibit A — Amendment to the Design-Build
Agreement with Wharton-Smith for Construction of the New City Hall. (Acting
Utilities Director Croteau)
For the approximately 46,000 square feet, three-story structure, Wharton-Smith has provided a Guaranteed
Maximum Price (GMP) of$17,255,537. The GMP includes a 5% fee, $821,692, for Wharton-Smith and a
3%, $478,656, in Design-Builder Contingency. The Contingency can be used by Wharton-Smith to cover
items such as subcontractor defaults, cost overruns not covered by allowances, and scope gaps between
subcontractors. It cannot be used for the removal and replacement of any deficient work. The use of the
contingency requires verification and agreement by the City. It also requires that any savings incurred during
subcontractor buyouts go into the Design-Builder Contingency. If at the end of the contract there is money
left in the Design-Builder Contingency, then Wharton-Smith would be entitled to 25% of the Contingency
amount. The remaining amount would be returned to the City. Along with the GMP,the total project budget
of$21,993,942, includes a 7.5%project contingency ($1.53 mil), 15% for furniture fixtures and equipment
($2.6 mil), and 3.5% miscellaneous amount that covers a variety of items needed to complete the building
such as testing services, permitting, consultants, attorneys' fees, etc. The City and Wharton-Smith will be
following the guidelines for the Owner's Direct Purchase Program, which should provide the City with
approximately$150,000 in sales tax savings.
Acting Utilities Director Croteau introduced Nathan Butler— Architect with HKS, Randall
Ellington— Wharton-Smith, Inc., and Andy Smith— Owner's Representative who were present.
She provided a background summary of the new city hall. She explained the next step in this
process is to approve Exhibit A—Design-Build Agreement with Wharton-Smith, Inc. Exhibit A
covers the Guaranteed Maximum Price (GMP) for the project which is $17,255,537. She
emphasized the GMP includes a 5% fee, $821,692, for Wharton-Smith, and a 3%, $478,656, in
Design-Builder Contingency. The Contingency can be used by Wharton-Smith to cover items
such as subcontractor defaults and the like. The total project budget of$21,993,942 includes a
7.5% project contingency ($1.53 million), 15% for furniture fixtures and equipment ($2.6
million), and 3.5% miscellaneous amount ($603,944). The total project budget is $21,993,942.
She presented pictures of the inside and outside of the proposed new city hall.
Commissioner Brinson asked if they have a projected date of completion. Acting Utilities
Director Croteau indicated substantial completion is scheduled for March of 2022, with the
anticipated move in at the end of April 2022. Commissioner Brinson further inquired of the
design-build team if they have a Minority and Women Owned Business Enterprise Program
(MWBE) associated with this project. Mr. Ellington said it is not a stated requirement on the
project, but they are looking at some MWBE contractors who have bid the job that they would
like to get on board, and a percentage can be tracked if the Commission would like that.
Commissioner Oliver inquired if they would be provided a list of MB's that were hired. Mr.
Ellington indicated a list will be provided with the percentages of the total contract value that
they were contracted for.
Mayor Johnson stated the groundbreaking is November 12th; and further, inquired when will the
actual digging of dirt and footers take place. Acting Utilities Director Croteau said they will
start at the site with civil work at the groundbreaking; however, the foundation is scheduled for
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February with steel being erected in April. Mayor Johnson emphasized he would like them to
speed up the process as much as possible as this has been delayed too long.
Motion: Move to approve the Project Budget and Exhibit A — Amendment to the
Design-Build Agreement with Wharton-Smith for Construction of the new City
Hall; and further, Authorize the City Manager to Approve Use of the Designer-
Builder Contingency and Approve Contracts and Spending up to the Amount of
the Project Budget, per staff recommendations; Moved by Commissioner Wilsen,
seconded by Commissioner Oliver; Motion carried unanimously.
STAFF ACTION ITEMS -None
COMMENTS FROM CITIZENS/PUBLIC - 6:40 PM
Angel de la Portilla, Economic Consultant, gave a brief overview of the recent and ongoing
projects within the City. 1) The City's most recently approved project, Ocoee Village Center, is
the largest approved project within the City since the West Oaks Mall, which took place in the
mid-1990s. He further explained the positive financial impact of this project based on the tax
revenue it will generate. 2) Announced that Tijuana Flats signed a lease for a unit in the Plaza at
the corner of West Colonial and Maguire Road. 3)Acknowledged that additional negotiations are
in process with both Sonny's BBQ, and Za-Za's Cuban-American owned restaurant who are
looking to build on the same corner. 4) Noted his recent communications with Moonbeam, the
owner of the West Oak Mall, and gave a brief overview of the financial investments they have
made on-site to increase the desirability of the mall, and shared his vision of adding multi-family
housing on the 100-acre site.
Commissioner Brinson inquired about what was meant when he said housing. Angel de la
Portilla shared there is a county-wide affordable housing shortage, and informed that multiple
developers over the years have approached Moonbeam about constructing apartments in the
empty parcels to the West of the mall. He shared that the infrastructure to sustain housing and/or
a hotel already exist.He further noted that this location is a 100-acre site that is generating roughly
$80,000 a year in tax revenue, and felt additional revenue could be made.
Commissioner Oliver asked about Moonbeam's stand on redeveloping the site. Angel de la
Portilla explained that Moonbeam is in a very unique situation, as they were able to acquire 27
struggling shopping centers after the last recession, including the West Oaks Mall. Currently,they
own the property outright. Which means they have the luxury of time, and are waiting for the
perfect deal.
Commissioner Oliver then inquired about additional sites within the City for the future
development of mixed-use projects. Angel de la Portilla shared when they met with developers
City Staff advocated for mixed-use development, and unfortunately, what starts as a mixed-use
project sometimes ends with only apartments. He further elaborated that due to the current
pandemic, dynamics are changing. Restaurants are struggling, and financing one is extremely
difficult. He then acknowledged hotels are another struggling industry as the current market is
flooded with closed hotels.
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Angel de la Portilla informed the outlook for the City is very positive mainly because it does
not depend on revenue from retail. but relies on housing and industrial revenue, which are both
in high demand at this time.
Commissioner Wilsen requested mindfulness of the single-family homes surrounding the
property when seeking to redevelop the West Oaks Mall.
Assistant City Manager Shadrix added the City has four alpha mixed-use sites within the City
Health Central Campus, the property located at the corner of Hwy 50 and Maguire Road, City
Center West Orange, and the West Road Area. The on-going goal, shared by several developers
at recent Commission Meetings, is to create a multi-use site within the downtown area.
Unfortunately, at this time retail is struggling. He then reminded the Commission of the plans
presented several years back to redevelop the West Oaks Mall into an outdoor shopping center
similar to the Winter Garden Village; and further reminded everyone that the City's hands are
tied because the current owner is not ready to invest at the magnitude required to accomplish this
type of buildout.
Assistant City Manager Shadrix ended by sharing the complexity of building successful
affordable housing.
HRDB Chair Maxwell announced and invited the Commission to a Meet and Greet Dinner
honoring the victims of the 1920 Election Day Massacre to be held at the Lakeshore Center on
November 7th from 6:00 PM — 8:30 PM. Mayor Johnson inquired about Darlene Jones'
documentary honoring the 1920 Election Day Massacre. HRDB Chair Maxwell shared the
documentary is set to air on November 1st and should be available to share during the dinner.
Mayor Johnson inquired about the relocation of Betty J's Florist. William Maxwell shared that
they will be moving from their McKey Street location to 403 Dillard Street in Winter Garden,
and announced a grand opening will be held on November 10th
COMMENTS FROM COMMISSIONERS - 7:00 PM
Commissioner Oliver— Commented on the following:
1) Inquired about the opening of Clarke Road; the statues, lighting, and two informational signs.
Development Services Director Rumer addressed his concerns and agreed to follow up with the
City Manager.
2) Shared he would like to hold a Public Meeting with DR Horton on Thursday, November 19th
regarding their new housing project along McCormick Road. Consensus by the City
Commission was to allow the use of the Lakeshore Center on November 19th for a
Public Meeting with DR Horton.
3) Shared he has received multiple e-mails regarding the retirement of Chief Brown and the
appointment of an Acting Chief of Police, and inquired about the vesting process. City Manager
Frank addressed his concerns.
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Mayor Johnson asked for clarification on who would be addressing the lighting concerns along
Clarke Road. City Manager Frank agreed to follow up with the Staff.
Commissioner Brinson—Commented on the following:
1) Inquired about an invitation and program for the 100-year commencement ceremony for the
1920 Election Day Massacre. Mayor Johnson addressed his questions.
2) Encouraged the Commission to consider guidelines for COVID-19 as they move forward with
Governor DeSantis' planned Phase 3. City Manager Frank understood the concerns and shared
that the City must comply with the law. City Attorney Cookson explained that the Commission
has some leeway on how the meeting room is set-up, and how the public is invited to attend.
However, the Commission has no leeway on how they make a quorum, beginning November 1,
2020, a physical quorum will be mandatory.
3) Encouraged citizens to remain mindful of COVID-19 and continue following the CDC
guidelines.
Commissioner Wilsen—Commented on the following:
1) Inquired about giving the City Manager discretion to conduct Commission Meeting layout as
he deems necessary, based on the meeting topics and anticipated participation. City Attorney
Cookson encouraged each Commissioner to contact City Manager Frank directly with any
concerns or recommendations regarding the logistic of their meeting. Consensus of the
Board was to give City Manager Frank authorization to conduct Commission
Meetings as he deems necessary.
2) Encouraged residents to read the City Charter, as it is the bible for how business is conducted
within the City. She shared that it can be found on the City's website. She noted the many e-
mails she has received regarding Chief Brown's replacement, and informed that the Charter is
very specific about what the Commission's role is and who oversees the day-to-day operations
and employment. City Manager Frank asked the Commission to send any emails they have
received that did not include him, and encouraged residents to email him directly with any
questions or concerns regarding Chief Brown's replacement.
Commissioner Firstner—Commented on the following:
1) Shared on Saturday, October 24, 2020, from 9:00 AM to 12:00 PM McCraney Property
Company and Marcobay Construction have partnered with Farm Share to host a food drive at the
Distribution 429 Industrial Park located in Ocoee. He reminded the Commission they have been
invited to assist.
Mayor Johnson—Commented on the following:
1) Advised that road construction has begun at the Fullers Cross intersection. However,they are
still waiting on an answer about the streetlights on Ingram and at the end of Maguire.
2) Advised he was asked by a resident about why the City is not repairing broken sidewalks, to
which he explained the City's Public Works team are constantly repairing sidewalks around the
city. City Manager Frank explained that every fiscal year the City has placed more money in
the budget, and contracted with outside sources to try to expedite the repairing of damanged
sidewalks. Mayor Johnson emphasized that sidewalks need to be placed down Palm Drive,
because that is a dangerous road and a lot of kids walk to school down that road. Development
Services Director Rumer explained there is a current project to realign Palm Drive where
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Regular City Commission Meeting
October 20, 2020
sidewalks will be placed from Ocoee Apopka Road to the park, and then a gap will need to be
filled from the proposed sidewalk to SR 429.
3) Advised citizens have been thanking him on lowering the millage rate for non-ad valorem
taxes, and he informs them the entire Commission and City Staff need to be thanked as well, as
it is a team effort. He personally thanked the Commissioners and Staff for doing the work needed
in lowering the City's millage rate for the fifth, or sixth, year in a row.
ADJOURNMENT— 7:24 PM
APPROVED:
Attest: City of Ocoee
41/6,. Jiro_
Melanie Si bitt, City Clerk Rusty Johnso viz or
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